TEMPO.CO, Jakarta - Two months after he was let go from his position as the energy and mineral resources minister, Sudirman Said is coming clean about the likely reasons behind his dismissal. Sudirman, who at the beginning was a favorite of President Joko Widodo, particularly on corruption eradication issues, felt he no longer had the President's support in his second year. He admitted it became difficult for him to meet the President. "I never found out why," he said.
When the President appointed him minister on October 27, 2014, Sudirman's main task was to rid the energy sector of the 'mafia' and its influences. He dismantled and audited Pertamina Energy Trading (Petral), which until then was seen as the hub of rent seekers in the sale and purchase of Pertamina oil.
In November 2015, Sudirman reported House of Representatives (DPR) Speaker Setya Novanto to its ethics council (MKD) for suspected demand of shares in mining company Freeport Indonesia. He alleged that Setya had misrepresented the names of President Jokowi and Vice President Jusuf Kalla.
Last week, he sat with Tempo reporters Arif Zulkifli, Ayu Prima, Sapto Yunus, Dini Pramita and Reza Maulana for a 90-minute interview at his home in East Jakarta, and shared his views on efforts to eradicate the oil and gas mafia, his relationship with the President and his concerns about the stagnating reforms. "The public needs to know what's going on," Sudirman said. Excerpts:
The DPR ethics council recently cleared Setya Novanto of any wrongdoing, restoring his good name. What is your view on this?
After that decision (when Setya resigned as House speaker on December 16, 2015, in a closed-door ethics council session), I no longer had the authority to speak out. That's how our politics and our laws work. It's linked to our low level of public ethics, where politics and the law merge.
But it was you who reported him to the MKD and to the President.
I was the President's aide, so it was unlikely that I would do something important like that without consulting the President first.
How many times did you see the President to discuss this case?
I recall seeing him five times. I explained how it all began; I showed him the transcripts of the conversation (between Setya, oil businessman Riza Chalid and Freeport Indonesia CEO Maroef Sjamsoeddin). I consulted with him till the end.
You got the recording from the Freeport CEO. What was the context?
When I first met them in November 2014, I told (the private sector) that every time they met to discuss the sector I managed, (they should) let me know. So, after a meeting with a DPR official, for example, that was reported to me. Pak Maroef met me to report the meeting he had with (Moh. Chalid and Setya Novanto). When a public official meets a businessman outside his office to discuss personal interests, that should raise questions. That's not ethical. When I asked about the meeting, Pak Maroef said he had recorded it.
How did the President respond?
When I first gave it to him in July last year, he said, "Just keep this evidence for now because you will need it later."
What did the President say when he heard his name being misrepresented?
He got very angry, pounded on his desk and said, "That's unacceptable!"
Did you mention other names, like that of Luhut Binsar Pandjaitan?
Yes, I did. I mentioned the plan that included other names and the deal mentioned.
Luhut's name was mentioned 66 times. What was the President's reaction?
I didn't go into the details of the transcript, but I submitted it to him and according to a source, he read it. So I'm sure he is aware of the details and followed some of the ensuing trial on television.
Initially, the President asked that this meeting not be disclosed. Why did you?
A television station got hold of the transcript and reported it. After that, I came under a lot of pressure from various people. I was accused of slander. So, I went back to consult with the President and suggested that the quickest resolution would be through the DPR ethics council because it involved ethical issues. At that time, we were facing two big cases: the Petral audit and this case. Through (Presidential Chief of Staff) Teten (Masduki), (the President) asked that we focus on the ethics council. What is interesting, this MR person keeps on trying to destroy the system.
You see exposing this 'Papa wants shares' case as an attempt at cleaning up the system. Yet the outcome is that Setya Novanto got elected chairman of Golkar Party and is now closer than ever to the government.
I recall being with the President on October 24, 2014, and discussing at length on how to get rid of the oil and gas mafia. When I got evidence in the form of this recording, I saw it as God showing me the way. But at the ethics council session, the President seems to have changed his tone, when he asked me, "Who told you to (expose) it?" I replied, "It was my initiative as a professional." I could not read his mind, but in state affairs, the final arbiter is the head of state. There's a wise saying that goes, you are who are around you.
Are you saying the government is getting worse?
I didn't say that. I think people are beginning to see that this was not something I made up. The political choice taken was different and it's apparent that the reforms are gone. What is happening is politics as usual. We are involved in reforms and people appreciate us, but then we are dismissed. Yet, people expect us to be replaced by better people. (*)
Read the full interview in this week's edition of Tempo English Magazine
